The architecture industry currently has a massive talent gap. There are way more vacancies than there are candidates, which is a massive problem for many firms who cannot staff properly and deliver projects, leading to employees quitting, staff burnout and a whole host of attendant issues.
I interview Stuart Lewis, CEO of marketing agency Clever Samurai to discuss talent attraction, best hiring practices and finding out ways to stand out from the competition.
Hiring, much like marketing is a spring, not a marathon.
Listen in to see what Stuart had to say on the topic.
About the podcast: Single Serves is a podcast where we interview experts on single issues of interest to architects and designers. The thought-provoking ideas shared here are intended to inspire our listeners to become well-rounded entrepreneurs who are the leaders of their field.
Credits: ©2022 Produced by Révélateur Studio & edited by Chris Rodd
Transcript edited for clarity and brevity.
RVLTR (00:04):
Stuart Lewis is a marketing and communications strategy expert who leads Clever Samurai, a Toronto-based marketing consultancy. His agency works in healthcare technology, manufacturing, utilities, distribution, and logistics. Employee branding, talent attraction, and retention programs have been central to the agency's work, developing successful campaigns for a range of corporate clients and industry sectors. So the topic for today is talent attraction, one of Clever Samurai specialties. So thank you very much Stuart for being on the show and taking the time to do this.
Stuart Lewis (SL) (01:24):
You're very welcome Arnaud and nice to see you.
RVLTR (01:27):
So can you start by telling us who you are and what you do, in your own words, in three sentences or less?
SL (01:33):
Well, as you said my name's Stuart Lewis and I am the president of Clever Samurai. And we are a marketing communications consultancy as it relates to what we're chatting about today. We're talking about employer branding, talent attraction, and retention, and our organization, which I'm very fortunate to lead, does a lot of that work for various clients in different sectors.
RVLTR (01:53):
So why is talent attraction important? One of the reasons that I want to ask that question is [that] in my industry, architecture and design, it's a sellers market. There are more jobs than there are people to fill them. So why is that important?
SL (02:12):
[...] The architecture segment is frankly very similar to many other segments where there's a talent shortfall. So why is it important? Well, I think there are two things: First of all, if you don't have the talent, how do you get the work done? That's just a fundamental, basic principle of many businesses that are short of talent. And then second, you want the best talent. If you think about [it] not all architects, just like any other profession, are created equal. You want the best people to work for your company or your organization working on whatever projects they're doing. And so the best people come in, all kinds of shapes and forms. And you want to make sure they have a chance to choose your organization. If you think about an architecture firm, as an example, what they do is they [come up] with ideas and then they use all kinds of technology and engineering thinking to make those ideas come to life. And that's complex work. So if you don't have people who are capable of doing that work, then how are you gonna fulfill the projects that your firm's been hired to do? You can't do it.
RVLTR (03:28):
So what would be the three things that a company needs to consider when developing a talent attraction strategy?
SL (03:36):
I would actually say probably four things. So the first is, you know, what's the objective? As in, what are we trying to do? So if you're an architecture firm, as an example, are you trying to hire an architect? Are you trying to deal with succession planning? Are you trying to deal with being able to support additional work that's coming in? Are you trying to deal with mergers or acquisitions? [...] So the highest level business objectives, drive everything. So the talent you'll bring in will be a function of what your business objectives are for today, the near term and also in the long-term. Most of the time people are back-filling or scrambling [to hire for] what they need to do for this week. As much as that's something that is obviously important to do, companies need to really think about what they need to do for next year, the next five years, etc. And it's no surprise that so many industries [have a] shortfall of talent. We've got an aging population and the Canadian government is trying to backfill some of that [with] immigration policies and the like, but there's just deficiencies in so many [sectors of the] workforce. Never mind capable people, just enough people [to begin with]. If you're a company that is trying to get ahead, there's just not enough workers to do the work you need them to do. The second part of all of this is: what's the story you wanna put out? In our world, we refer to it as an employer value proposition, [as in]: what are we selling? [Here's] an example: One of our clients is in the healthcare space. There's no question that there's a shortfall of nurses. Everybody knows that. So making more nurses is not an option that's gonna happen overnight. So what that means is that nurses have to come from [another] organization to their organization. You don't have to convince someone to be a nurse. You have to convince somebody to be a nurse with our client. So that employer value proposition becomes very, very important. And as much as compensation is an important factor in all of this, one of the things that's becoming increasingly more important is lifestyle. I think the pandemic has sped some of that up, but you look at how millennials view work versus say my father's generation or whatever. It's quite different. And my father worked for the same company for over 40 years. Who works for companies for more than 40 years anymore.
RVLTR (05:54):
You're lucky if they stay four years <laughs>.
SL (05:56):
You're right. So with that employer value proposition, not only you wan to attract them, but to your point, when you say they're lucky to be there for four years, is how do you make that EVP really come to life? So the reasons that they join are the reasons that they stay. So that'd be the second thing. The third thing is about creative. So, let's talk about architects. I mean, they are technical in nature for sure, but they're also creative. No one wants to make ugly things. Obviously there's the limits of budget and time and technical parameters, but everybody wants to try and find a creative way to solve whatever problem they're trying to solve. So if you're putting out some sort of a campaign that has the employer value proposition, that's what that architecture firm wants, but you do it in a way that's not appealing to architects. Well, who's gonna apply? Nobody. They're not gonna do it. So if you're doing something that's interesting, then you're gonna get their attention. And I think the fourth thing is the channels. So for example [this] podcast that we're, is a channel that architects and others that are tangentially related to the space are listening to. Because of that, it's a way to reach that particular audience. There's many ways to reach that audience, but your [...] show is what could easily be part of a mix to be able to reach people in a new way. So it's interesting when I look at indeed, and I don't know if you you've done this, but what would you guess the number of architecture related jobs that are just up for post on indeed right now, today in Toronto area alone? What would you guess be?
RVLTR (07:31):
500
SL (07:33):
Over 3000.
RVLTR (07:34):
Wow. I knew there were a lot of postings, but I didn't know it was that many. That's probably as many as there are firms in the city.
SL (07:41):
It's insane. You've got a retirement boom happening, so what that happens is that you have experience leaving, you have a talent vacuum. You asked at the beginning: "Why is it important?" Well, it's important because [...] if you don't have the people to do the work, then how does the work get done? So what ends up happening is that in some cases you end up having to settle for talent that isn't as good, because having talent isn't as good is better than having no talent on your team at all.
RVLTR (08:22):
I can't tell you how many firms I've seen scramble to hirer, because they needed the bodies in the chairs to do the work. And then six months later they let people go. Because they're just not the right fit. So that's also a huge waste of time because you try to fill those spaces with bodies, but they're not working out. And so you're wasting a lot of time, and you have to rehire shortly after. And that costs a lot of money too.
SL (08:46):
There's an old adage that's: "Slow to hire quick to fire."
RVLTR (08:51):
Fire fast, hire slow.
SL (08:53):
Exactly. But these days who can hire slow? So from a strategy perspective, you're really thinking about how do you bake that employer value proposition in a way where you're like a magnet and you're attracting the kind of candidates that you want, whoever they may be, whatever that profile might look like, for the business you're running. But it's not: "I'm switching on the switch today." The switch is always on because you're always interviewing, you're always looking and you're always trying to make sure that whatever is your overall business strategy, your overall plan, you've got people potentially coming all the time at the ready, to make that happen.
RVLTR (09:30):
That's a very good point. It's not to say that it's the only way to do it, but have had friends who are firm principals who have started an Instagram account solely for hiring purposes. Because they know that the kids they want to hire are on there and that they're going to look at the firm for months, years before they send a resume. And so if they have a good image of what the firm's about over time, it helps them hire the right talent at the right time. So it makes a lot of sense.
SL (09:56):
And you know, it's interesting what your friends are doing because they recognize that people are doing all kinds of online research. There was a time, again my father's generation, he was just happy to have a job, but now, you know, as we talked about earlier, people are looking around and they're making decisions that aligned with their values or their lifestyle or whatever it all is. And there's so much information available, that's at the fingertips, from behind a computer. So how companies are managing their brand online makes a huge difference. So which company would you rather go to? One that's engaged in its brand and doing the things that align with your values or one that you haven't heard anything about?
RVLTR (10:33):
Well, we both know the answer to that. So it sounds like what you called an employee value proposition and a talent retention strategy is almost to be treated like a marketing strategy where you want to find the right talent, that's the right fit for your company. And so you have to go where they are the same way, [say] if I were to help a client promote their latest project to have to try and get it published to wherever the potential clients are. Is that correct?
SL (11:02):
Absolutely. And I wish more people understood that. So one of the things that we talk about is this thing that, , oftentimes people are doing is what we call it "post and pray": [They're] just gonna post a job and pray something's gonna happen. Well, post and pray, I'm not saying it can't work, but think about the example we used earlier: 3000-some jobs for architects or technologists and the like on indeed. Good luck trying to find your job at the top of the heap and somebody, picking your job because they like your job better than whatever it is they're wading through. You can have the best opportunity in the world, but if it's buried, how [are they] gonna find it? So it's as much as it's true that candidates do go to job boards, candidates do all kinds of other things in their lives that have nothing to do with job boards. You're absolutely right. If you're marketing, whatever that is: a product, a service, you want to go where your customer is. The customer that you might be looking for in this case is a job seeker. Here's the other thing I think is important. 73% of job seekers are actually passive. They're not actively looking, but if they saw something that was interesting to them, away they go. They'll start looking around and how do you build a relationship with somebody [who's] maybe at an early stage of looking [around], but you've got their attention and then away they go. The principles around consumer marketing, because obviously this is a consumer thing, it's marketing to a consumer who is an individual looking for a job. I mean, these principles apply, I'm not saying universally, but certainly materially.
RVLTR (12:30):
I guess it would be different for every company. What are some of the things you can point out to, for firms to start doing, to stand out? Because you said, you know, you go on Indeed and there's 3000 other jobs you're competing against. Not only you're looking for the right talent, but there's 3000 or let's say even half that 1500 people that are looking for the same talent. How does one stand out? What are some of the foundational principles of a job fulfillment strategy that someone could look at and say, this is what I need to do to stand out and find the right talent. Because, and again, it's very timely we're talking about this because everyone I know, maybe 90% of the firm principals that I interact with every day, they're all looking to hire right now, all of them and they're all struggling. So I think this is an extremely important question to answer because everybody has the same issue.
SL (13:29):
There's a lot to unpack in that, but I'll comment on two things that are probably pillars around all this . The first one is: "What are we selling?" So everybody who's an architect is already an architect. You don't have to convince them to be an architect. So you look at all these job posting and they say: "You do this and you do this and you do this and you do this". Yeah. I already know what that is. I'm an architect. I know what that is. You don't have to convince somebody to be an architect. You have to convince somebody to be an architect with you. So what is it about you and your company? That's better, smarter, different, faster, stronger, whatever it is, that's gonna appeal to that candidate. And I'm not talking about foosball tables and beer taps. I mean, they're cool and all, but at the end of the day, people that are top quality talent, it's not they don't enjoy things like that. But what they wanna do is they wanna do real work. They wanna do something that's meaningful. If you think about an architect, how many years did they go to school? How much money did they spend to do that? When did they start even thinking about it? They're probably playing with all kinds of toys and various things that had them interested when they were a child. So you don't just fall into it as a job, likely it's something that is a passion. So if you are trying to attract people to come to your place of work, what kind of work are you offering them? And I don't mean how many hours. I mean, what kind of projects can they [work on]? Can they do cool stuff? So here's an example. It's not about talent attraction, but it's the same kind of idea. One of our clients and they've been subsumed a couple of times over through acquisitions and the client that acquired them is still a client of ours to this day. So we're really, really fortunate they continue to trust us through, through the years, but the genesis of it was a company called Icynene. It's a spray foam company. And there's all kinds of benefits of spray foam, but one of the benefits from an architectural perspective, is that spray foam can go around curves. Well, the number one competitor of spray foam is rigid board. It doesn't go around curves, so if you're an architect and you wanna make a building that's got curves on it and you wanna make sure it's up to code and all the different things.
New Speaker (15:35):
Hopefully insulated.
SL (15:36):
You got it. Now what we wanted to do at the time was to have architects spec, our guys product. The first thing it starts with is: "Spec spray foam". And then maybe they spec our guys stuff, but at least spec spray foam, and then our guys will get whatever, whatever share of the market they have. So one of the insights that, that we had was that not exactly groundbreaking here, but architects are proud of their work. So what we did was we targeted a whole bunch of firms in the US and we found a marquee project that had a curves on it that they were proud of. [We] took that project, had it sketched, put on a t-shirt sent it to the firm's principal in a beautiful tin with a letter and saying, we're calling you, we want to talk to you about [spray foam]. The lunch & learns were off the hook. Further to that, these firms were asking for more t-shirts because it had their stuff on it. Why? Because the insight was is that architects want to do great work and they want it to be beautiful and they wanna do a great job. Now I appreciate there's a lot more to it than that, but that's the simple kind of insight. So if you are a firm, you wanna attract someone to work for you, why would someone work for your firm versus somebody else? And then the second thing is if you're out there and you're communicating whatever it is, you're communicating a job ad. Well let's face it, job ads or not the sexiest things in the world.
RVLTR (16:54):
No, and they're often the same. I don't read them regularly, but every once in a while I'll go to job boards and look at them and it's always the same formula. It's very formulaic. It's always the same crap. Like: "Your responsibilities are this, your role will be this, your experience is that and your salary commensurate with experience." None of them are writing ads that stand out like that. Even something remotely funny. I'm not saying "Be a standup comedian", but write something that catches someone's attention. Why aren't copywriters writing ads?
SL (17:30):
Humor is obviously a great breakthrough device for sure. And I'll come back to something in a second, I'm gonna pick up on what you were just saying. People often say to me, I love what that company did, but I can't do that myself. And I'm like, why can't you? When you show clients creative, that's more breakthrough often, they're afraid of it because what would [people] think? Well, imagine somebody actually noticing you that would actually be a good start. There's a saying that somebody said to me, once: "Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die." And so with that, I love the creative that somebody else is doing, but that's not for me. Really? So to your point, you know, where are the great copywriters doing this kind of stuff? And when you were talking about the job ad, you said "[...] and this experience and this and that" You know, what, who cares? What's in it for the candidate? So employers are always thinking about me, me, me, me, and me. They need to turn it 180 degrees and think about candidate, candidate, candidate no longer are employers buyers, they're sellers, they have to sell why someone should come to them. And what they have to do is get that employer value proposition clear, tight, and compelling, and [to]deliver it in a creative way. We recently won an international marketing award for a healthcare client that we've been doing some work with and, continue to do so right now, in fact, it's in field as we speak and it's about attracting nurses. And I think I touched on it a couple of seconds ago. We don't actually market the nursing job. It's a community nursing organization. So what's inherent in the job is an ability to have split shifts and have work life balance, flex time. So we're actually selling flexible days.
RVLTR (19:21):
That's on your website, right? I saw that campaign.
SL (19:24):
That campaign, doesn't say: "Here's how you be a nurse". What it actually says is: "Here's how you be a mother or a father or a brother or whatever.
RVLTR (19:33):
The same way you said architects know how to be architects, nurses know how to be nurses. They want to know what's in it for them, right?
SL (19:42):
That architect firm that wants to do whatever they wanna do, if they wanna be different from somebody else, then they actually have to first make the decision to actually be different. They don't have to figure out what that is. I mean, obviously folks like our firm and others out there, help people navigate that process. But the first thing they have to look at and say is: "I got this problem. Whatever I'm doing right now is not solving my problem. And so therefore I'm willing to do something different than 'post and pray'.I don't know what that looks like or what that feels like, but at least I'm gonna give it a go because whatever's going on right now, I've got a talent gap that I can't fill." And then further to that, I may have a further talent gap, you know, down the line because my workforce is gonna continue to retire. And then what do I do?
RVLTR (20:22):
Do you have any idea why there - and maybe it exists, I haven't seen it - I'm completely ignorant on the subject, but why isn't anyone out there offering firms to write job postings for them? Like a copywriter who knows how to sell something like someone who can write sales copy that that actually works, because in a market like we have today, you could charge a few hundred bucks a posting and and probably be very successful at it because no one else is doing it.
SL (20:57):
As much as a job posting is important, it's, it's a very small item. It's an important item, but it's a singular item as part of an overall strategy. So if you look at the commercialization of something like that, it's hard. To your point, someone could make money charging $300 or $400, but you gotta sell an awful lot of those to make any money. From a commercialization perspective, if you're looking at firms that have depth and breadth and capabilities, they're looking at being able to roll in and look at end to end because it really is an end to end scenario. So if you look at the job postings, the number of architects that are actually looking for jobs right now will likely be less than the number of architect jobs that are open. But all that said that doesn't mean people aren't willing to move. So how do you get somebody to move from point a to point B? If you've got a shortfall of talent, one of the things you gotta convince somebody to do is to leave somewhere else. You're essentially poaching from another organization. So how [do you] do that? And if 73% of the job seekers are passive, they're not out looking on job boards for jobs at all. In fact, the bulk of people are not doing that. So how do you interrupt them in their day, wherever they may be doing whatever they're doing [so] you can get to them. And then with that, this isn't the job posting. This is the story. And so what's the story that your organization needs to tell that is true, because if it's not true, people are gonna find a disconnect. And to your point earlier, they're gonna leave and they're not gonna like it. So that's not gonna work. So you either fire them because they're not right, because you've made the wrong hire or they're gonna leave you because you misrepresented what you're about. And so how do you interrupt them in their journey and then get them to self-select and say: "You know what, I'm kind of interested in that [job]". We did a campaign. This goes back, maybe four years ago. It happened to be for a law firm and we're actually gonna do something similar for another client in a different category. But this law firm was looking to get people of a certain experience, within certain specialties. And we carved a very specific strategy that had, geographic boundaries and a pitch around it, the whole bit. And we actually reached out to people directly, so it was a little bit headhunter-y, but there was some nuanced differences from it, [it was] very, very successful. But that was a decision that this law firm made that they were willing to, put their neck out there and reach out and target the talent that they wanted, specifically to fit the needs that they had as an organization to do what they've gotta do. [...] Not one job posting involved at all. So I think there's lots of different ways to do things. But what's right for one company may not be right for another.
RVLTR (23:35):
One thing that I wanted to touch on and I've seen it for as long as I've had a career, which is about 12 years, people of often leave a job "greener pastures" and generally for better pay. But especially during COVID, we've seen some of that backfire what some people have called "the great resignation" and realizing that better pay is, everything else being equal, not necessarily better leading to what you called the great regret, what can companies do to address that and what are the issues or challenges associated with that that phenomenon?
SL (24:20):
Well, I think one of the things that happens is that companies and I think it's changing a lot in fairness, but they become complacent. They have to realize the value of their business. So you look at floor workers in manufacturing plants, and let's say they're labour that doesn't require significant technical training. So you're talking about lower cost labor. When you're an industrial complex. And you've got 50 companies in that area that are all more or less the same. You can move from building to building and you can just do the circuit and you can go for your $2,000 extension bonus or $5,000 signing bonus or whatever they'll do laps. And so sometimes people are doing that. So how do you be preemptive? Well, you be preemptive by being preemptive. So what's the strategy that you need to put in place in order to be preemptive. How do you listen to your employees? How do you make sure they are valued? I don't mean lip service. I mean, really feel valued. Everybody wants to feel valued and you're not gonna keep everybody because some people it's just not the right fit on both sides, but being preemptive means being seen to act in a genuine fashion. So if you're an employer who is genuine about what you're doing and you're being proactive and preemptive about it, you're not gonna have that problem. You know, we we had a client that another one acquired some time ago, but they were the largest non-union electrical contractor in Ontario and the union came all the time and said: "You know, we'd like to try and get your team to sign up for the union." And the employees of this organization never said yes, because their employer [a] privately held business, understood the game and understood "Here's what I need to do to keep my employees happy" and did any number of things to make that happen. Compensation was part of it, but it wasn't the only thing. And so what do you do? You do it before it actually happens and you do it genuinely, and honestly because you, your employees are, maybe not partners by contract, but they're partners in the success of your business and in a market where talent is at a premium, especially great talent at a premium. You wanna make sure that you're keeping your people happy and most importantly fulfilled, in in what they're doing. Because if they're fulfilled in what they're doing, they're gonna do more of it. You look at situations like architects, where they invest a lot of time and money in education to [just to have] this career. It's quite an achievement just to be able to be able to stamp a drawing. They've got mobility. They can go anywhere. And as we talked [about] earlier with 3000-some jobs in Toronto alone, someone find have a job in a week. So the employers that have them [the talent] right now, what are they doing to show them the appreciation and love they need? And it goes beyond money, sometimes money, you don't have it, but you can do lots of other things. And I think one of the things that happens is that, employee surveys as much as people go: 'Oh, it's an employee survey. It's another one of those things again." Well, it's incredible what they'll tell you, and what you might learn.
RVLTR (27:33):
If you ask the right questions.
SL (27:35):
Yeah. But you gotta be prepared to act on it too. But "I don't care?" Well then fine then, you reap what you sow.
RVLTR (27:43):
So you you've touched on that briefly, but for employers, is it ever a good idea to try and attract your competitors employees?
SL (27:52):
That's an interesting question. Ever is a big statement, so ever? Sure. But is it right in every circumstance? Probably not. So it really depends on where your business is going and how committed you are to being assertive around at that particular strategy in effect. Anybody who posts job ads that you're referring to is taking employees from someone else. Anyway, it's just not overt. So the difference is that if you're being overt about it, then that would be a different thing. So for example, this industrial area that we were referring to that has these 50 hypothetical companies all in the same area, if you're to run geofenced advertising and say: "Everybody come over to our company and leave where you're at", it's gonna show up on everybody's phone and everybody's apps. Well, does that mean like war? Yeah, it does. If you're prepared for the consequences of that, and you believe that's a strategy that you want to to employ, to be successful, then have at it, but you gotta really think it out because you know that the other company who is potentially leaving their employees, they're gonna counter. And then where, where do you go with that? So I think it's one of those things that recognizing the labor market has mobility in it. It happens because it happens, it just doesn't happen overtly. So when you're doing it overtly, it's kind of a different thing. One of the things that we've been doing is we've been running ads for our community nursing client on geofence. What happens if you're working a night shift at hospital X and something shows up because you're surfing around and you see something for community nursing that might interest you. But the thing about something like that is we've made a decision with our client that if someone wants to take an interest in it, away they go, but we're not actively poaching employees from that particular organization, because that's [...] not where our client or that strategy is gonna make sense. So what's good for one is not necessarily good for another. You just gotta be aware the consequences, both the good and the bad of doing it.
RVLTR (30:02):
There's another topic I wanted to touch on, because I think it's gonna become even more prevalent in the future. It's the use of AI as a recruitment tool and from what I understand, I could be wrong, but a lot of job posting platforms are screening in the first rounds using AI. So if that's the case and I don't know how much you know about that, and they use that to separate the, the wheat from the chaff. How can employers and employees prepare for that change in the way they post and respond to job postings?
SL (30:39):
You are right that it's becoming more prevalent and it's becoming more advanced. I think there's two sides to it. There's the employee side and the employer side. Let's talk about the employee first. So what happens is that employees are now force fit into various systems, various ATS, and the like that will basically reject their application. If it doesn't meet a set of criteria or it's not formatted properly.
RVLTR (31:09):
Can you define ATS?
SL (31:11):
It's a talent management type system. So it's like a CRM for talent. So if you're going into an organization that's large and they have a high volume of applicants, the HR departments will have a tendency to use these kind of systems where they pre-screen. They're cumbersome for employees. If you are an employee who doesn't take the time to do it properly, or perhaps the job is something that doesn't require strong language skills or strong computer skills, and you don't have strong language or computer skills, then all of a sudden you're gonna run at all kinds of problems. So the reason that they're there is because the human resources departments, particularly large companies, it makes it easier for them to manage applicants. But the downside is that the abandonment rate is enormous. You're talking like 90% abandonment rate on some of these systems, it's brutal. So what they're doing is they're missing out on all kinds of potential candidates who say: "This is a pain, or I can't do it, or I'm out." So if you are wanting to streamline the labor on the management of the applicants, it's got an advantage because obviously it makes it easier to parse various kinds of candidates. But the downside is what are you losing because that's in place. So there's arguments to be made on both sides. Obviously the software providers who build these things, think they're great and wonderful. Because obviously that's their business to try and sell them, and in fairness, there are huge advantages to them. The disadvantage is that it's not perfect. And you know, Candidates are just like: "Why do I wanna do this?" The other thing as well is that it's all about "easy". So the systems that are being sold to employers, they're saying I'm gonna make it easy for you [employer] to manage your candidate pool. All true. But it doesn't necessarily make it easy for the candidate. As we were saying earlier, that we want to have candidates be like customers, is that customer-friendly? So how do you wanna look at it? So you've got this [im]balance where the HR departments are saying: "I need to make my life easier, but I need great talent." And you've got candidates who are saying: "I'm not gonna go through this process because this is a pain in the neck." Now, when you talk about things like personality profiling and behavioral assessments and those other kinds of diagnostic tools, that gets beyond our realm of expertise. Because that goes beyond marketing, but those types of diagnostic tools are extraordinarily helpful in terms of me being able to make decisions on the kind of candidate profile that you're looking for when you're actually going through the hiring process. So I think that your broader question is: "Is AI beneficial?" And the answer is: absolutely if it's done smartly. But I think that there are some downsides, like there is with anything, you just have to recognize what you're dealing with.
RVLTR (33:59):
I think you are right on the money. The challenge is that it makes HR managers's lives easier. But if you're looking for talent, and talent is hard to come by to begin with, how many great potential employees are you missing on because they just don't have either the patience or enough computer skills, like you said, to fill out your application, or put together a resume that fits within those little boxes that have to be ticked. I think that's a huge issue. Do you think hiring is gonna be a hundred percent managed by AI in the future or there's always gonna be a human element?
SL (34:41):
That's a tough question to answer, but I gotta think that, if you're hiring people, you need people to actually hire at the end of the day. So a hundred percent? I would say unlikely, but do I think that there's gonna be more integration of technology into everything that we do, including hiring? Yeah. Of course there's no question about it. And if you also think about even where talent wants to go, you know, there's a survey I was looking at this morning in which Gen Z'ers claim they are interested in arts and recreation as a number one choice and technology, the number two choice. So if you've got more and more people getting into technology fields, they're gonna be advancing technology at an even more rapid pace than it is now. So I don't see how that could not touch HR, just like it touches everything else.
RVLTR (35:27):
Good point. I think that's all for the questions I had for you today. Is there anything else, any last thoughts you'd like to share with the audience or maybe some tips for them, how to go about finding and retaining the right talent?
SL (35:44):
I think the biggest thing I can say is if what you're doing is not working effectively enough, then you need to think about doing something else and Arnaud, you said earlier, how do you, how do you stick outta the crowd? Well, you know, you stick outta the crowd by actually doing something different from everybody else. And so you don't have to know what that different is. I mean, there's people like us and others that know how to do that, but the first decision is maybe to do something different. If what's going on is working for the architect firms then have at it. But if it's not, then look at a fresh approach. Think about what we talked about at the beginning, about why is talent attraction important? It's competitive advantage because if you've got the talent to run your business and somebody else, doesn't. Your ability to run your business and your ability to win bigger and better projects and continue to do that. That's what it's about. And if good talent is the barometer of what's gonna make one business more successful than another, then that's a strategic imperative. And I would say to firm's principals: "And what are you doing about it?"
RVLTR (37:00):
It makes sense. The number one thing I retained for this conversation today is that hiring is not something that happens at one point in time. It's a continuum and you constantly have to be on the lookout, even if you're not actively hiring, because when you are looking for staff, if you have an Instagram that is engaging and you're doing all kinds of other things that people pay attention to when you are hiring, they'll say: "Oh, that firm's interesting. I've heard about them here. And I've heard about them there and they were at this conference and whatever." I think this is really the way to look at it. It's like marketing, how many times I had clients who thought that they can do a push for three, six months and then turn off the tap and be done with it and think that it's gonna work for the next 10 years, versus understanding that marketing is an ongoing thing. You constantly have to put yourself out there. That's, that's what I retained from this.
SL (38:00):
I would agree with all of that.
RVLTR (38:02):
Cool. Well, I wanna thank you very much for your time and generous insights and hopefully this is the first of many conversations.
SL (38:09):
Fantastic. Arnaud, thanks so much.