My guest for this episode is Emma Landis.
She is the founder and principal of Richan Art, an art advisory focused on collections management for corporate and private collectors, as well as public art commissioning for some of Canada’s largest developers.
Emma holds an MA and a PhD in art history from Western University and University of Victoria Respectively.
In this episode, we are discussing her mission to build a greater appreciation for and understanding of the arts among various stakeholders, such as collectors, for whom she seeks unique and meaningful pieces; developers and institutional clients; as well as students through the development of a mentorship program at OCAD University and the Etobicoke School of the Arts.
About the podcast: Single Serves is a podcast where we interview experts on single issues of interest to architects and designers. The thought-provoking ideas shared here are intended to inspire our listeners to become well-rounded entrepreneurs who are the leaders of their field.
Credits: ©2024 Produced by Révélateur Studio & edited by Chris Rodd
Transcript below edited for clarity and brevity:
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Emma, thanks very much for joining me today. It's really good to have you on the show.
Emma Richan: It's my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me today.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): So let's start with a little bit of an introduction and can you tell our listeners who you are and what you do in your own words, in three sentences or less?
Emma Richan: Absolutely. My name is Emma Richan. I'm an art consultant and the principal of Richan Art, which is an art advisory based here in Toronto. I advise corporate and private collectors on how to build unique and meaningful art collections.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Very short and sweet. That's great. So I want to start with the deep age old question. Why is art so important to us humans?
Emma Richan: Oh, that's a great question. I would say that art is what makes us human. We do so many things that we have to do, like science, math, all of these things are very important to continuing the human species, but art is something that is so uniquely human, it really compels us and it drives civilization forward in a way that is very different from some of the hard sciences.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): So would it be fair to say, it's kind of a way for humans to explore ideas that don't really find a home anywhere else?
Emma Richan: Yeah, you could say that, and I also don't want to put art completely separate from science and math because a lot of people are able to explore similar ideas in one platform or the other. There are lots of artists who explore physics, for example, through a creative practice.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Yeah, that makes sense. So let's bring it back a bit more to down to Earth matters. And you said you're an art advisor and collection manager for your clients. Can you tell us what that is exactly? Art advisory and collections management?
Emma Richan: Sure. So this can work in a variety of different ways and my clients look different, depending on their needs. So I work, for example, with corporations who may or may not have collections already and they need advice on which acquisitions they should look to next, what would be smart investments for their company and which artworks perhaps represent their goals and their mission and dare I say, brand, and then also how to care for that collection, how to document it properly for insurance purposes, how to do appraisals, should be done approximately every five years to safeguard the collection. So that's kind of how it looks, very loosely, for some of the corporate clients that I have. I do have corporate clients who also want public arts, so I would help facilitate that process with the city, there's a lot more stakeholders involved and sometimes, we also do mentorship programs with local schools, universities, or high schools. And then when it comes to private collectors, that ranges quite a bit as well, depending on their personal goals. And I help them establish their goals if they don't have them yet. So some people do have investment as a priority, and even the idea of investment changes from person to person. So helping them tease out what it is that their priorities are. When I say investment, for some collectors, that just means trying to make sure they're making smart decisions. And $10,000 can be a lot of money on a single painting for a lot of people. So they just want to make sure that they're not throwing their money down the drain. They want to make sure that they're buying something that they love and they don't necessarily need to be making money on it. They just hope that it'll hold its value.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): So at the very least, it's not losing money. It's a very interesting world. And do you work with people who are in it purely for the art and money's no object and they don't care if what they have loses value and they just want to buy art that moves them? Or is there always an investments mandate behind what they do and what they buy?
Emma Richan: That's a good question. I find that even very, very wealthy people, they still have a budget because they have other priorities in their life as well. There are very few people, I call them mega collectors, and they're the people like Eli Broad who funded his own museum in LA or the Rubel family in Miami who are able to fund their very own museum too and hired their own staff and everything to safeguard that collection and have taken control over how it's displayed. I have high net worth collectors, for example, even they, who are able to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on a single piece, that's their budget. Everybody has a line. It's different for different people.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): So how did you get involved in that world? And the corollary to that question is, what drives your passion for the field? So let me ask the question again. How did you get involved in this world and what drives your passion for the field?
Emma Richan: Thank you for asking that. How did I get involved? I have been interested in art since I was very young. At that age, it was more an interest in creating art myself. When you're a kid, you're not really thinking about what job you can get in the art market, and I grew up in Kingston. Both my parents worked at Queen's University and Queen's actually has a really exceptional art gallery on their campus, the Agnes Etherington Art Center. And they are very fortunate to have had some wonderfully generous benefactors, the Baders, Alfred and Isabel Bader, and they have donated original Rembrandts and incredible examples of Renaissance art to that collection. So that was my first exposure to "real" art. And after that, I mean, fast forward a bit, I did my undergrad and my graduate studies in art history and I had a pretty good sense that I wanted to move into the private sector as opposed to public, being museums and institutions. And I think that is just kind of a natural drive of mine. Both my parents, I mentioned they worked at the university, but my grandfather owned a jewelry store in Regina, where my family's from, and my great-grandfather owned grocery stores in Regina as well. So I think there's something natural in me, some natural drive to have this entrepreneurial spirit and combine it with my passion for art. And you asked as well, what keeps my drive going?
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Yeah.
Emma Richan: I really love helping people connect with art and helping them find what resonates with them. One of the reasons I like to be an art consultant as opposed to owning a gallery, is because I have a lot more freedom with which artists I'd like to work with. And I'm not confined to a specific roster or stable of artists that I need to promote because I already own a bunch of inventory of their work that I need to sell. So this way I can really help people connect with exactly what it is they like and what their interests are and say, "Oh, have you thought about this artist? It really seems to connect with your personality or your home or your values system."
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): That makes a lot of sense. So can you maybe share a couple examples of notable projects or experiences that have shaped your career and things that are meaningful or important to you that can help our listeners understand a little better what it is that you do? To me, it's still kind an obscure world 'cause I know nothing about it. And so I'm kind of fascinated to learn more about what happens behind the scenes.
Emma Richan: Sure, absolutely. And it can be a bit of an opaque industry, which is, part of my job, is to help collectors or people interested in collecting and navigate that world. Something that I'm working on right now that is, I think, shaping and changing the direction of my work a bit is a public art project that I started a few years ago. Public art is quite a different sector than collecting or advising on private collectors' collections, for example. So with public art, the first project that I'm working on is with a major developer here in Toronto. He has a long history of doing public art here. I'm very lucky that he gave me a chance to start working on public art because he was working with a different advisor in the past and he just wanted to shake things up a little bit and try something different. So with this project I had to, if we break it down into what I actually do, we had to start out with creating a public art plan that needed to be approved by the city. These are pretty specific documents. There are clear things that need to go into it, description of the site, historical context. You need to create a long list of artists to be approved. So everything that goes into this public art plan is usually, about 10 pages long by the end of it. It needs to go to the city, to the Toronto Public Art Commission, it's a board of professionals not employed by the city, and they have to approve that this looks like a good idea, that it's going to be public serving because this is private money on public land and needs to be publicly accessible, the sites, the potential sites for where the art needs to go or may go needs to-
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): When you put those plans together, do you already have an artist or even an art piece in mind or at that point, it's just this is what we want to do, but we're still looking for the art itself?
Emma Richan: At that point, there are only possible art locations selected, a long list of artists, and the artwork has to be, at least in the city of Toronto, has to be site specific. Meaning, when we select an artist, they create the piece at least for the site. So it's a commission. Meaning, we can't buy something that's already been created, which I think is great actually, because then it really will speak to the neighborhood that it's going to or at least has the potential to.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Yeah, or even the building or the space it's in, right?
Emma Richan: Yeah.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): I have this sculpture in mind that's at the Panem Village, that big blue thing-
Emma Richan: Yeah.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): ... The human figure and you can walk through it. I always thought this was pretty cool. So I guess that's a good example of a site specific project?
Emma Richan: Yes. I mean, any of the public art in Toronto is designed for that site. And sometimes people or the artists, they have to be quite creative because the space that they're given is not very large. So, I mean sometimes it is, but sometimes it's in a dense downtown area, for example. They have to make sure the artwork is visible from close up or from inside one of the buildings. How is it going to look from all these different perspectives for different people?
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): That's interesting. So let's go into it a little deeper, into architecture and development. Why do you think it's important to prioritize the finding high quality art for developments and how should developers and designers prioritize or organize it?
Emma Richan: So I really think that public art has a vital role to play in any well-designed urban landscape. And it can be a really effective tool in community building. And people nowadays, are very discerning and very visually literate. So I think a developer or anyone commissioning public art, whether that's a designer, a landscape designer or whoever, there is a new global audience that they need to be considering when they're creating their projects because their audience will notice if it is kind of an afterthought. And the public art, whether it's public art inside a space, like in a lobby, or outside, it really, it needs to be considered at the outset of the project and needs to be built into the budget from the get-go so that it's not thought down the line, "Oh wait a second, we really need public art, but wait, there's no art. There's no budget left. How can we do this for like $50,000?" And it's not possible. It's almost better not to do it at that point, unfortunately, if it can't be done properly. And for example, with public art outside, it also needs to be decided very early on because things like lighting need to be considered, which means electrical may need to be done before concrete's even poured. It really needs to be done really early, earlier than a lot of people expect and-
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): It's almost concurrent with the building design or the site design, right?
Emma Richan: Exactly. So some of the public art projects I'm working on now, the art itself doesn't take as long as the building. I mean the development could be massive and take many years, but we have to kind of line all the public art, the design stage, the fabrication, installation, any mentorship program, it all kind of has to line up with the construction schedule.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): That makes sense. So as a thought just occurred to me as you were talking, like art and architecture used to be very much intertwined up until fairly recently. If you think of a lot of public buildings in the more traditional style of architecture, you'd have a building that's adorned with sculptures and frescoes and all kinds of things.
Emma Richan: Absolutely.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): And with contemporary architecture and modern architecture, it seems like this has largely disappeared. The old quote, I think it was, Adolf Loos, "An ornament is a crime," things like that. So what's your take on that change? Because those used to be, the architects would either design the ornament and the art as part of the building or commission artists to work with them directly on whether we put gargoyles and whatever else they were decorating buildings with. And now it's no longer the case. Now I'm not going to say it's an afterthought because based on what you described, it's not the case, but it's almost like a thing you do on the side to enhance public spaces. And is there any value in maybe trying to get to a place where art and architecture are intertwined and inseparable, and how would you see that happening in the contemporary context? Or are there even examples of that, that you can think of?
Emma Richan: This is a really good point and it is really a modern phenomenon to have this disconnect between architecture and art. Because yeah, I mean, we're talking even in the 20th century, people during the early 20th century and during the Renaissance, Michelangelo and Leonardo, all these famous artists, they were architects, they were artists, they were the Renaissance man who was able to do all of these different things. They were mentors. And now, I think part of the challenge is that we live in a world where everyone is hyper specialized. And I know I feel like a lot of architecture programs in Canada, like Waterloo and at Daniels ALT, they do a good job of teaching art appreciation in their programs. But I think there's, as you mentioned, there's still a disconnect in art creation and also, understanding how to work with art professionals so that there can be that integration and urban landscape architects are really good partners for our consultants as well to work together.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): It's been a while since I was an architecture school, but while I was there and I went through three different schools, you wouldn't even dream of designing a building where the art was part of the architecture. And the closest I've ever come to, was for a studio project where we designed a building around pre-selected pieces of art, which was an interesting exercise. It would not even occur to us to do, and I'm not even saying neoclassical buildings like you might've seen up until the 1920s or so, but even just contemporary architecture that was more artistic. And I guess the closest one that comes to mind in the current context would be someone like Thomas Heatherwick. Many of his buildings are kind of sculptures in their own rights, but it is also a completely different approach. It's interesting that this is not done or even thought of when we have literally millennia of precedents that are that way.
Emma Richan: Exactly. And it is, I guess, also part of this trend to, the modern buildings, the contemporary buildings that are going up now, they're very clean, clean lines. There isn't even the same ornament in the buildings themselves. But there are a couple examples that I can think of that despite that, are able to successfully incorporate art, and one in Toronto would be the Shangri-La, downtown. They have that really amazing piece by Zhang Huan. It's not, per se, part of the building, but the way it kind of goes up and almost kind of wraps itself.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): It's that [inaudible 00:12:56] wolf-looking figure with the [inaudible 00:12:58] attached to [inaudible 00:12:58].
Emma Richan: Yeah, exactly.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Yeah, I know exactly.
Emma Richan: It's kind of that silver look to it. They do a good job and that does a good job, especially in what we're talking about today's standards of corporate art and building it into the building itself. And then, while this one was really controversial, in New York City a couple years ago, they created a second bean, you know Chicago's Bean, by Anish Kapoor, and they recreated it, or obviously, Anish Kapoor was involved in the project, but they put it at the base of a new development and they had it looking as if the development was kind of squishing it. That's a funny project 'cause there's a lot of controversy around having it [inaudible 00:13:32].
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): It took a lot of [inaudible 00:13:33] for being a second bean. But that's also an interesting point because The Bean was so iconic, people literally traveled to Chicago to see The Bean.
Emma Richan: Yeah. So that's a great example of how art can be a place making tool.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Yeah, I think it was Brandon Donnelly on his blog, who's a very interesting blogger about architecture, urban planning and development, he's a developer in the city in Toronto. And he was saying, if you're not the first one to do it, you've already lost the plot. There's already one bean. So if you want to do something else, create your own iconic piece of art. And I guess, I can imagine that the idea behind the Second Bean was like, we want something that's safe. It's going to appeal to people 'cause we know it did in Chicago, but then you're missing the point of creating public art, is that you want to create something unique that both speaks to the place and also is new so that people are attracted to it. So I see, and I agree with some of the criticism, it's like, why would you just replicate something that's been done and not come up with your own original idea?
Emma Richan: It may be partly a budgetary restraint. If they wanted to have a blue-chip big artist like Anish Kapoor, but they didn't have the money to get an original work by him, this might've been their solution. Maybe that's [inaudible 00:14:28].
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): I can't imagine Anish Kapoor being cheap, even if he just replicates this piece.
Emma Richan: I know.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): But anyway, those are really interesting ideas. Because listeners of this podcast are primarily designers and architects and people in the industry, the architecture and design industry, can you maybe give some practical advice on people who would be interested in developing, integrating art in their practice? Maybe more or better, but don't really know how to do it or want to maybe get to it in a more meaningful and thoughtful way?
Emma Richan: In the sense that they'd like to work with someone to make that happen or they'd like to do it?
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Let's say you're an architect and you're interested in integrating art into your projects, but yeah, you just want to know where to start, basically. Let's put it that way.
Emma Richan: Okay. So I think whether you're an architect, a designer, or a landscape architect or developer even, the first thing you want to do is, when you're creating your idea, have art in mind from the outset, not just for budget reasons, but for scheduling and for aesthetic consideration. And as part of your concept in your design, you could also start playing with that idea right from the beginning, for how you could apply that to art. And you'll want to as well, look at what art specialists or art advisors have the expertise in that specific area. For example, not all advisors do all types of work. Not everyone will do public art management. You'll need to find someone who has experience doing that and just have a conversation. You don't need to be locked into anyone. You can just have different conversations with them and they may need to see things like plans or discuss with you what your aesthetic or other goals are for. And then from there, it really depends on the specific project. If it's an interior project, if it's exterior, if you're looking to incorporate art into a restaurant, for example, you may need to have something commissioned. You may be able to buy things with the help of an advisor that are already created. And well, the designers and architects can choose their own art. Certainly, they don't have to have an advisor. An advisor can really, there are a lot of steps involved, and so it's great to have a dedicated person to manage finding the right work that fits with what you're trying to achieve. Not only that, because it's not just about finding something that aesthetically fits, but you also need to know how to negotiate with the people selling the work, have the relationships already with those people in the art industry, to find the best prices, to do the packing, shipping, making sure everything is in the right condition, overseeing installation, lighting, all these things. Designers are busy people, right? Architect designers, they're busy. And so it's great to have someone else handling all these other details that come up because there is a lot that goes into it. So having a dedicated point person would really help out these teams, I think, achieve their goals.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): And so, in terms of public arts, is this something that's strictly voluntary? So your developer who loves art, just wants to integrate that in their project, or is there an actual mandate, say, use Toronto as an example, or if you have other cities you want to talk about, you're welcome to do that as well. Or is there a mandate from City of Toronto to say, if you have a development bigger than certain size, you have to dedicate X percent of your budget to art? How does that work exactly? 'Cause I know in places, there's a public arts mandate, but I don't know if it's the case in Toronto or if it's still true. So can you clarify that for us?
Emma Richan: Sure. And this is changing and has changed. There's been some changes made since 2022. There is a lot of confusion around it right now, how to incorporate art into projects. Before, it was kind of like a medley of different programs, but it worked. People knew, developers knew how to go through the system. There's a 1% program, so developers are supposed to dedicate 1% of their construction budget to public art or to a public service. And they could choose, that community benefit could be public art, so they had the option. It's less clear now, how-
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Was that the mechanism they used to get increased density or it's something separate?
Emma Richan: Exactly. That was a section 37 density bonus [inaudible 00:17:47].
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Okay. Yeah. That's the one I [inaudible 00:17:48] before.
Emma Richan: Yes, exactly. So now there's greater ambiguity for how developers can fund public art in the city. But the 1% budget is still recommended.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): So is section 37 still in force?
Emma Richan: It's been changed.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Okay.
Emma Richan: And I mean, the city has still, they've really expressed their desire to improve the presence and meaning of public art. But some of these newer programs that they've been implementing has been challenging for implementing private funding to support public art. So right now, well in 2021, they did the year of public art. That's what the city had made this whole year of public art. And it was really successful in supporting local and emerging artists and doing this kind of hyper local activations throughout the city. But it seems to have come at the expense of the city's interest in securing private funding, which I would argue, both are really important in creating a robust arts focused culture for the city.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): So what do you mean when you say it came at the expense of securing private funding?
Emma Richan: Well, because at the same time, that's when they started making these changes to density bonus, because density bonusing doesn't exist now. It's kind of like, you build what you're supposed to build in that size, in that area, and then you have to give the city a certain amount of money for community benefits. But it's unclear how, if you can, select public art as that, or if you just have to give the city that amount of money, based on how you're building.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): It sounds like just got more complicated.
Emma Richan: It did, but developers can still and should still, I would argue, doing public art because it'll look a little bit different now.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Yeah. And so that was the next question I had for you. Even if there's no incentive from the city to do public art, what would be the benefit for developers, and even architects, to really push for public art? There's obvious ones we've already touched on, but maybe you can expand a little bit on that. What is the ultimate benefit of that? Maybe at a local scale on the residents of the place and maybe the direct neighbors, but also on a larger scale, people elsewhere in the city or even outside of the city. And maybe you can lay it all out for us and tell us what you think about the benefits and why people should do it.
Emma Richan: Sure. So I think we've mentioned a couple of things already in that audiences are very visually aware now. As you mentioned as well, we do need to cater to local residents when we're considering art, especially public art, but we live in an increasingly global world. People are constantly traveling and moving around and you want the art to speak to both groups, which is a very large challenge, really, to be able to speak to the community and be a draw for international visitors. So I think I need to go back to something like The Bean, I think it's super successful in achieving that, in achieving something that is a point of pride for local residents, it's a meeting place, it's a playful space, it's a space of respite. And I think that successful public art does all of these things. And then it also, it's a draw. It successfully manages to create community at the local scale and the global scale. Everyone feels connected to a piece like that. And then I think a city, for them to succeed in creating their public art strategy or programming, there really does need to be the right incentives in place to get the art made. And the goals really have to fit the culture of the city as well.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): So regardless of current programs, what do you think the incentives should be? If you could, with a magic wand, implement the ideal public art policy, what would that look like?
Emma Richan: Oh, that's a big question. I mean, because there will be developers who will always do public art because they really care about it and they already understand the value of art in their sites. They know, I mean, there's kind of the headier ideas around having art as being really valuable to our culture and to us as human beings. And then, from a more practical, depending on who you are, potentially crass perspective, it really can help build brand identity as well, as a recognizable site that people want to go to and people want to live there and be near that site because we've got this really amazing work of art. And that doesn't have to be, a city like Berlin does a great job with that. It doesn't have to be crazy blue-chip, expensive, famous artist to succeed in doing that. Berlin has examples-
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): You say Berlin and I can't think of any iconic piece of art in Berlin. I've never been to Berlin, so I'm sure I would if I had, but there's nothing like The Bean in Berlin, in my mind.
Emma Richan: Right. That is true. However, everyone knows that Berlin is a big art city.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Yeah.
Emma Richan: It builds up a reputation for having this culture. And people, lots of people in the arts, move to Berlin, even if it's just for a short period of time. And they have a really large public art collection and a really large public art presence, both historical and contemporary. And they're able to do that and to establish their reputation without buying crazy expensive stuff and without having major controversy. And so that's kind of the model I think Toronto could follow because we don't have the mega bucks that some of these US cities have to do that with. Or Dubai, for example, they've got a totally different trajectory [inaudible 00:22:05].
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Yeah, that makes sense.
Emma Richan: Their brand new city, for example, it can be harder for cities that have already got their urban planning established and they've got all the spaces already in place, to then figure out where we can insert public art. Whereas if you're incorporating public art into the development of the city as it's growing, that can be an easier challenge to face.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think it's time to wrap up. I touched on most of the points I wanted to touch on, but the last question I would have for you is, we've talked about The Bean as this iconic piece of art. Do you have a favorite or is there another one that really speaks to you as the pinnacle of public art in terms of both international, local reach, quality of art, all those things we touched on?
Emma Richan: Anywhere in the world?
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Yeah, anywhere in the world, not just Toronto.
Emma Richan: I don't know if I can specify one particular work.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Or you don't have to stick to one, but maybe a couple that speak to you.
Emma Richan: I think that cities do a really great job. The public art that sticks out to me the most are the ones that resonate well with the city that they're in. So for example, in Colombia, there's a lot of work by Botero, and I really love that work is there, and that really speaks to the place and the people and history of the area. But I wouldn't want to put a Botero in Toronto, per se. It doesn't really make sense. Jaume Plensa has some really great pieces around the world. There's one in Toronto, there's one in Calgary, and I would say, I like the one in Calgary better. And I know Calgary gets some flack for their public art programming. I think it's something people just love to hate, but they have some great pieces. For example, this one, and it's right by the bow because you can actually walk into the head.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Is it the white wire frame head?
Emma Richan: Exactly. Exactly, yeah. And so, it's in a plaza so people can walk around it, they can walk into it, and you can see it from afar. You can go, again, up to it or into it. So I really like that piece. I mentioned Zhang Huan's at Shangri-La. I think that's one of the most, if not the most successful piece in Toronto. It's different than a lot of the other works that we have. And I think Toronto, there's a lot of room to create different types of work. And yeah, I'm very interested to see what comes out of Dubai's developments. And also, Smart Centers is developing the new downtown Vaughan. And they're really focused on integrating art into all of their spaces, and they're being very brave and bold about what kind of work that they put into those spaces. So I'm excited to see how they manage to integrate art into this little new culture that they're creating.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): Yeah, I'll make sure to keep an eye out for it. So thank you very much for joining us today. I think it was a very interesting conversation about art. And in my opinion, one we don't have it often enough. Because architecture can be very, especially in commercial development, can be very kind of numbers driven. So it's good to have an opinion on how art can integrate into that. And I think well thought-out, public art can really enhance the more pedestrian aspects of architecture in terms of money and return on investment and things like that, if it's done well. But also, all the intangibles that are not necessarily measurable, but will drive traffic to the site or make people more interested in the place are also equally as important. So where can listeners find you and if they want to get in touch or just follow you, where do you reside online or where people can connect with you?
Emma Richan: Well, I have a website. It's www.richanart.com. You're also welcome to email me. My email address is emma@richanart.com. I have a LinkedIn and an Instagram page. The Instagram is @richan.art.
Arnaud Marthouret (RVLTR): All right, I'll be sure to link all those in the show description. Thank you very much again, and maybe we'll have more of those conversations in the future, once there's more stuff to talk about, especially art as it relates to Toronto.
Emma Richan: Great. Thank you so much for having me today.