Mark Wainwright is the founder and Principal Consultant at Wainwright Insight, a sales consultancy for professional services firms. After over 20 years working with various professional services firms, Mark created Wainwright Insight to address the lack of sales expertise in said firms, and to help experts sell better. Mark bills himself as a "Part-time Sales Manager for Part-time Salespeople" like architects, engineers, and financial advisors who need to get organized, build future sales leaders, and grow their firms.
Other related episodes mentioned in this interview: 401 w/ Tyler Suomala and 405 w/ Kim Seldon.
About the podcast: Single Serves is a podcast where we interview experts on single issues of interest to architects and designers. The thought-provoking ideas shared here are intended to inspire our listeners to become well-rounded entrepreneurs who are the leaders of their field.
Credits: ©2023 Produced by Révélateur Studio & edited by Chris Rodd
Transcript below edited for clarity and brevity:
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: So thank you very much, Mark, for taking part in this little conversation.
Mark Wainwright: You bet. Thanks for having me, Arnaud. This will be fun.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: So can you please tell me who you are and what you do in your own words, in three sentences or less?
Mark Wainwright: I think I can do that. Most architects, engineers, consultants, and other experts struggle with sales, even saying it sometimes. As a part-time sales manager for those part-time salespeople, I help firms create and run an organize sales function. And I coach individual doers, sellers to increase their skills and confidence with sales. Architects and engineers who are more organized, more confident, more prepared, and generally more skillful with sales can take control of that really messy, often confusing process of finding and winning new work, and hopefully become the firms that they have always wanted to be.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: Sounds pretty clear to me. So in the process of preparing for this interview, you and I discussed many possible topics, and ended up settling on the idea that proposals are or should be treated like conversations. What do you mean by that?
Mark Wainwright: It's a good one. It is a good one. Particularly with things that are complex like architectural services, buying and selling should be a series of conversations. And our proposal is one of those conversations in that series and it's not just a piece of paper. And to be clear, some of the listeners may get a little confused with proposals, and contracts, and scopes of work, and other things like that. I separate those two things out. I don't think a proposal is necessarily a contract. Those are subsequent documents and hopefully subsequent conversations in the process. But I deal with proposals pretty specifically where your proposing ideas, and price, and things like that. And I will note that you had a previous episode, previous recording with Tyler Sumala, and anybody who's listening to this should go back to that and consider that part one of this, because we're going to hopefully continue on that conversation of that prickly word of sales, and just dig a little deeper into some areas.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: And there's also another upcoming interview that I just did with Kimberly Selden of the business of design-
Mark Wainwright: Oh. Great. Yeah.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: ... where that I think is going to dovetail really nicely into those other two conversations.
Mark Wainwright: Perfect.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: So while we're at it, to make things crystal clear, why don't we do a little audio glossary of what you mean by proposal contract and maybe whatever else you think we need to clarify before we dive deeper.
Mark Wainwright: Yeah. And a lot of firms will use a contract they get in America from the AIA and there may be a similar sort of prescriptive document in Canada, and in other countries may have a similar document where there's a lot of legalese and there's many clauses, et cetera, and that is your contract. And associated with that, you can have an appendix that includes a scope of work that is as detailed as appropriate. It outlines a specific fee or price, it outlines specific terms, everything that's agreed to, et cetera. That's a contract, right? But in order to get there, you need to work through a process of a proposal and proposals are hopefully almost draft in nature in that they are ideas that you are proposing, that you are working through together with a potential buyer, pushing and pulling things, modifying things, editing things, getting to the point where you've made some verbal agreement to move ahead, which then prompts the creation of a contract. But we don't want to get to that contract point until we first all aligned around what's to be done, price, et cetera, and a few other things that we'll talk about later, I think.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: Okay. And so why conversations specifically? Or, maybe if that's a too vague a question, you said it's a series of conversations. How would you explain the process or the ideal process in your mind to people who may think that you just talk to a client, send them a proposal by email, and hope for the best?
Mark Wainwright: Well, the series of conversations that I hope people are having are getting to know you conversations early on to understand compatibility, and to make sure that the two, the consultants and the client, the potential client are a good fit. That you see things the same way, and that you can be mutually successful together. Assessment conversation would be a conversation that drives increased understanding. So it's largely focused on inquiry and the experts need to put aside their expertise for a moment, and just be really curious in that conversation. And from that conversation comes some potential approaches to helping the clients solve their needs. And that's the main topic of our conversation today, which is that important proposal conversation. And to touch on the why should it be a conversation, is because it's super hard to work through that whole process asynchronously. I mean, we have a hard enough time communicating well through a series of text messages or emails. Things always go sideways. So particularly in professional services, architectural services, things are complex. These are hard, complex, with lots of moving parts and lots of language and details that buyers often don't understand. Things can be misinterpreted. We can't read body language without a real live in-person conversation, and we can't respond to questions, to comments as they rise. So a conversation gives us that real time live interactivity that we really need to move through pretty complex stuff.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: Yeah, And I can attest to that personally because a number of years ago I took the win without pitching training, which is sales training-
Mark Wainwright: Great stuff. Great stuff.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: ... and it's basically what you described, it's the conversation like taking the client through a series of conversations. And what I've learned through doing this, and I think this is what the listeners really need to, if there's one thing to retain, is that by asking the right questions and listening, listening in my opinion is the most important skill, you get so much valuable insights as to what your client is thinking. What their fears are, what they're not telling you. It's almost like a superpower. It's really mind-boggling sometimes, and-
Mark Wainwright: It's a superpower.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: ... as a result, what I've experienced often is that I go in to meet with a potential client and having no idea what to expect, and I come out with a pretty clear understanding of what's needed, and how I can help them if I can help them. So I'm a huge fan of the sales processes, a series of conversations. And I alluded to that, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this. What are the most important skills required to conduct those conversations?
Mark Wainwright: Well, people might expect someone like me that comes in and talks about sales to say stuff like, "Good presentation skills, good eye contact, good negotiation skills, deep subject matter expertise", all those things. Someone might expect one to say that. The reality is, throughout all these conversations, like we've mentioned, you need curiosity, you need empathy. You need to have good active listening skills. You need to leave your ego behind. You need to have a desire to learn and a desire and ability not to walk in the door assuming too much. You need to be organized and prepared. You need to be emotionally intelligent in these conversations, because eventually someone might say no, and you need to not take that personally. And all these things are really things that are associated with just being a good human being, and not really things that are associated with being a good or even a bad salesperson.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: So it sounds like you're describing the antithesis to the salesy salesman.
Mark Wainwright: It is. Yeah. Yeah. It is.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: So I want to talk a little bit more about proposals and before we get into the way things should be, can you describe the most common approach to proposals from service providers that you've seen in your career?
Mark Wainwright: Yeah. I think the first thing that strikes me is that they're generally all about the consultants, the architect, right? They're very little about the prospective clients. It seems like every page there's an opportunity to talk about yourself again and again, show a picture, or just pat yourself on the back. And I know most individuals out there who are seasoned professionals feel that they're pretty humble, and not boastful, and things like that. But these proposals just page after page just seem like they're really centered on the firm, the practice, the services offered, their expertise, et cetera, which is a little bit frustrating from a buyer standpoint is that they have tough time finding themselves in those proposals. But beyond that, how they're built, they generally jump right into the detaily stuff, the scope, the schedule, the budget. They get really, really deep into the technical details. They get focused on tasks and the work to be done. Pricing is all over the place. Pricing is a mix of certain dollar amounts associated with certain tasks. There's ranges, sometimes there's time and materials mixed in there in this big stack of work and tasks. There's a ton of unknowns that they don't know how to price them. There's a handful of a la carte options kind of stuck onto the very end of everything. And then there's a long list of assumptions and exclusions that firms just love to have. And at the end of the day, it's really confusing, and you've suddenly made this confusing thing actually buying complex professional services way harder.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: Yeah. So in the process of describing what you've seen, you've kind of answered the next few questions. I'm going to jump ahead a bit and say, out of this kind of chaotic mess let's say, for lack of a better word, that you've experienced as part of working with your clients, what would you say people should do differently? What's the ideal kind of proposal process from start to finish that people should consider to become more effective salespeople?
Mark Wainwright: Great. Great. Great. It's such a good question. So fundamentally, the first thing I mentioned before was that they're all about the consultant. Immediately, that needs to get up to 180 degrees and-
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: I may interject for a second-
Mark Wainwright: Yeah. Yeah.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: ... I see this in marketing all the time too.
Mark Wainwright: Yes.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: It's like you go to someone's website, it's all about them. It's, "Me, me, me." And it should really be like, "You are our prospective client, this is what we can do for you." And I'm broadly generalizing, but that's kind of a disease in the architecture industry. And I'm going to maybe make enemies in saying this, but so be it. I think architects tend to have, generally speaking, pretty big egos. Not all of them, but a lot of them do. And when it comes to marketing themselves, it can't really bite them in the ass, because it's always all about them. As an aside, but it was just so cringey. I saw an architect who shall remain nameless, but pretty famous in Canada, who did a partnership with a big brand that had nothing to do with architecture. I'm not going to say more, otherwise people are going to find out what I'm talking about. But it was all about him. So this is what I believe, and this is my aspiration, and it looked really cool, but it had no relation to what he could do for his client. It was just a pure puff piece. And it was just kind of, "How did you get there?" Is the question.
Mark Wainwright: I actually think a very small percentage of individuals and firms can get away with that because their buyer are people who want to associate and identify themselves with that particular brand, with that persona. So I think that, like I said, a really, really small number of firms, but the vast majority of firms out there have to prioritize client centricity. They have to always put the client first. And I would say that ego has something to do with you. You're absolutely right. But I think the other reality is that when we are a practitioner and things are confusing, and often with architects, things like marketing and selling are confusing. So when things are confusing, we default back to what we know and what we're comfortable with and what we know and what we're comfortable with is ourselves. So we talk about a practice. So I would say it's not necessarily intentional as much as it's just the default setting of so many experts out there they're like, "All right. We're going to put up a website. What are we talking about? We don't know. Okay. Let's talk about what we know. Let's talk about ourselves." So I think that's the default setting and that transitions from the content on a website, and the content of a conversation end up being very similar, where it's very consultant or architect centric rather than focused on the client.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: And I like that you flipped that on its head. It's like the ego can be a part of it, but sometimes it's just, "Yes. The only thing people know." You're much more diplomatic than I am, I guess.
Mark Wainwright: Well, they are equally dangerous. So I wouldn't shy away from saying that firms need to be conscious and aware of both.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: We went on a bit of an aside, so what would be the process from start to finish of an ideal proposal in the form of multiple conversations, if I can describe it that way?
Mark Wainwright: Sure. Sure. I think that maybe I'll start with the end in mind here. I think that we can kind of reverse engineer this a little bit. I would think that the end product, like I said, the proposal should be client-centric. It should be developed and created to be a conversation first, and a document second. Now whether that actually means that you're actually creating something that can be delivered in a presentation, or a conversation, and then you have a document. Or you build whatever you're building in a way that you can communicate it live, rather than attaching a PDF to an email, and sending it off and hoping for the best. So it should be created with a conversation in mind. And I think it should contain really three main parts and if there's other stuff, then you can just stick it on the back. But first and foremost, it needs to contain something I call a statement of understanding, which is a really clear articulation that's 100% about the client, about their situation, who they are, their situation, the client needs, potentially what prompted them to reach out to you, or to understand that they have this particular need in mind. And what their ideal desired outcomes are. What is the picture they have in their head of success and what does it look like as we walk down the road together to get there? And the last little bit of the understanding that is critical is what are the implications of not achieving that outcome that they really want and what are the implications of achieving that outcome? Because I think implications are super important. We don't really consider, "Well, what's all the bad stuff that's going to happen if I just continue along my current path?" Or, "Wow. What are the implications? What are all the huge benefits that I'm going to get that others are going to get should this be successful?" And I think that really the implications part of that entire understanding really turns up the dial a little bit on the energy and the focus and the urgency behind changing from what we're doing right now to whatever the future holds for us. So those components of statement understanding are really, really important. It should include a simple approach to the work, which some people say it's a scope or whatever else that the client can clearly understand, and it's not focused on all the stuff the client gets. Hours, the deliverables, all that stuff. It's what they get out of it. And a lot of times what clients get out of a scope of work are clarity, direction, understanding, good, clear communication, all those types of things that help simplify and clarify a really, really confusing process.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: And just to piggyback on what you said earlier is that all the details of the scope of work can be in the statement of work attached to the contract, the hours, the fees. I mean, you want at least one fee on the proposal, but I think this is where there's an important distinction to make, and that's what I've started doing. Although my scope of work is usually a lot simpler than an architectural project, but the contract is the same for every client. And then there's an appendix at the end that contains the scope of work, and sometimes it's just a copy of the invoice. Sometimes it's a bit more elaborate.
Mark Wainwright: Right.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: But I think that's where the distinction needs to be made is that if you want to detail all the hours, the money, the time, the exclusions, whatever, that's at the back of the contract, not in proposal.
Mark Wainwright: Right. It's at the back, and that is something you get to after you have the verbal agreement to move ahead, because that's an additional investment in time and effort on your part that you shouldn't be spending at this point in the conversation. The conversations as they progress, have increasing demands on your time and energy. If we front load way too much time and energy, if you develop a fully fleshed out Gantt chart schedule, and a really complex scope of work, and everything else too early on and the client says no, then you've wasted a bunch of time. So there's an ever-increasing amount of time and energy that you're putting into these conversations as they progress. And if they stop at some point, you haven't overinvested.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: Yeah.
Mark Wainwright: So that's-
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: And it also goes back to your point that every step is a conversation, because you may need to revise your proposal based on what the client says when you review it with them, and then you may need to revise your scope of work when you send it attached with your contract. And so every step of the way it is a conversation. I really like that approach, it makes a lot of sense.
Mark Wainwright: It is. And I mentioned there's three parts to the really good proposals. The first is that statement of understanding. The next is your approach, the scope of work, that probably has some variables and some options in it. And then the last is price, right? And your price should be put forward in a really easy to understand three option table that sits on one page that someone can really understand and read, and then they get to choose which option they'd like to buy.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: I was going to ask you, because what I've been doing is three, I call it the heavyweight middleweight and lightweight options, for every project. So that gives clients kind of a gamut of both services and pricing, and then they can pick whichever they want. And so how do you structure those three options? Because what I would call the heavyweight in my proposals is usually fully loaded everything I can think of under the sun, and about 99% of clients never go for that one. That's more of the aspirational kind of proposal. Middle ground is usually more or less what they ask if their expectation in terms of budget is roughly aligned with what I normally charge. And then the lightweight option is the bare bones option that they can go for, preferably they would go for the middle option. How do you tell your clients to structure those, because curious to see if-
Mark Wainwright: Well, we would have to have a part two to this podcast in order to run and really dig into this. Fascinating pricing is fascinating, and most firms approach pricing from a cost plus standpoint. Meaning they take a rough guess of or an educated guess, or use a very sophisticated spreadsheet, or they use throwing the dart at the dark board to figure out how many hours it's going to take to complete a particular scope of work, particular project. And they stick a little margin on top of that and they say, "Okay. Here's your price." But the problem with that approach, because all that kind of rolls up typically in what looks like one option, the problem with only providing one clear option or a messy collection of a bunch of different numbers is that it makes it hard for someone to buy. Someone doesn't want one option. People like to choose. And not only do people like to be able to choose, they like to co-create the final thing with you. So giving them three options gives them the needed context they require in order to make a decision, "Oh. Light, medium, heavy. Small, medium, large." Whatever the three options are, it gives them the ability to compare those numbers inside your proposal. If you only give them one option, they have to go to someone else to get a comparative number and you don't want to do that. You want people to choose how they'll work with you, not whether or not they'll work with you. And I think that's the core of having these well-structured options. Now, I will always make sure I asterisk this and say, you can't give them too many. There's a great book and a TEDx talk and a bunch of really wonderful stuff from a guy named Barry Schwartz, and it's called The Paradox of Choice, where if people are given too many options, they won't be able to choose one and they'll be paralyzed.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: Yeah. It's like when you're standing in front of the canned tomatoes at the store, and there's 30 different options, you don't know which one to choose.
Mark Wainwright: Exactly. Exactly. When people say, "Oh. No. I choose just fine. I choose the one I always choose." Which is understandable, it's something that habitually you do week in, week out, month in, month out, whatever else, but sometimes people are only buying professional services like this once, so they have no idea. So you can't give them too many options, and you can't just give them one. So you have to give them the right amount. And it seems that three is a good amount and how I recommend firms structure, it has less to do with what's included and what the amounts are and all that. It has to do with a small option should either get them to where they want to be or get them close, but not incorporate a bunch of things that they likely want or value. The middle option should be something that you can provide, get somewhere they want to get to help them achieve the objectives, incorporates a bunch of things that they'll need, and is something where both of you can be mutually successful. The big option is the kitchen sink. Take all of the options, exclusions except all of it and just throw it in there. And if it's a really, really high price that they'll never ever buy, that's okay. They look at that and then suddenly they use that really high price lens and look at the other two and they say, "Oh. Those other two look like a pretty good deal."
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: It's called anchoring, right?
Mark Wainwright: It's called anchoring, right. It's called high anchoring. And I'll also say this, if people out there are thinking this will never ever work in my complex high dollar professional services, they are wrong. This works all the time because we're not dealing with this really deep, rational thinking that's going on in people's heads. We are dealing with sometimes irrational, a little bit illogical, fast thinking that happens in people's minds that often either guides good judgments or clouds other types of decision making, but it's a play in all of our heads and it's called cognitive bias. And there are a whole bunch of different kinds of cognitive biases. And the one you just mentioned, anchoring is one of them. And all these cognitive biases are at play, particularly when we're talking about price, because price creates this very carnal, this really base human reaction, this fight or flight. Almost sort a reaction in our brains, and we have a tough time sometimes separating ourselves away from all these biases that are at play in our heads, and really thinking about it rationally. Very rarely does that happen.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: That makes a lot of sense. I think you're right. We might need to have another conversation about pricing alone, because I wanted to ask you about value, but I think it's getting a little too far out of this scope of this conversation. So maybe you can briefly touch on that pricing based on value, versus hourly, or any other form of value in what you do.
Mark Wainwright: It is complex. So without getting details, I will say one thing I think that most people completely miss about value, and that is that value exists completely in the eye of the beholder. It's like beauty. They're in complete control of the value that they assign to something. And our goal as salespeople is not to make a value proposition, or make guesses, or assumptions about something that someone will assign value to, something that people will pay for. Because I think a lot of times we think people will pay for a certain thing when they don't care about that. So that is the one thing I'll say about value is that the buyer, consumer, whoever is in complete control of value, but in order to be successful in speaking to value, using value in the conversation, the option that a seller has is to uncover the value that people assign to a particular thing. They're really find out what's most important to them. If you can find out what the top two or three things that are most important to someone, and then price those appropriately, great. You'll have a successful sale. If you are pricing things that people do not care about, it's going to be a tough road.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: You kind of answered that in a circular way, but I want to push back against the idea of that values and strictly in the eye of the older, because it is largely, but you can influence by the conversations we've been talking about by listening and understanding what the client values, which what you just said. So it's I guess just a different way of putting it. Because I think it's important for people to understand that they can influence the process even though the ultimate decision is in the hands of their clients. They can affect how the value of their services is perceived, and therefore be more successful at selling them. Does that make sense?
Mark Wainwright: I'm with you on that one. Value is an often misunderstood but incredibly fascinating concept. And most professional services firms do not understand it, do not leverage it, do not consider value when it comes to the services they offer, how they put together scope, and how they price things.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: Which takes me back to what we were talking about earlier. It relates to how they market themselves as well. Because if you market yourself with a focus on the value you can bring to your clients, and I'm a firm believer that architects are the holders of a tremendous amount of value, they just don't know how to leverage that, because they default to what everybody else is doing, what they've learned in their careers. So I think we've covered pretty much all the points I wanted to cover. I just want you to maybe give a couple pieces of advice to people that want to start on the journey of becoming better salespeople, and maybe this time just focusing on proposals. What should they do now for the most immediate results? What's the one or two things you would recommend?
Mark Wainwright: Right. I think first and foremost, it really goes back to why we had this conversation in the first place is that regardless of what their proposals look like, or what they contain or whatever else, just start thinking of them as conversations and not a PDF attached to an email. The expertise and time that we spend on developing these proposals is a completely fair trade for 60 minutes of someone's time to have a meeting, walk it through, have a conversation, right? That is critical. And if someone is not willing to have that conversation with you, it's a powerful leading indicator that they may not be a really good fit to work with. And if you often are working within very prescriptive RFP situations where you don't have access to the client to have these really great conversations, that's another red flag that says, "Should you be out there selling services to people who are using really, really poor buying processes who don't want to talk to you even though you're going to be working with them potentially for years? Is this a really good way for them to be buying these services?" And likely it's not.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: It's not. There are people in Canada, I'm sure in the US as well, who are fighting for procurement reform, because too many times a complex architectural project was procured by someone who spent a lifetime procuring stationary. And those are not the same things. You can't understand complex professional services if you spent your life procuring simple products in large quantities. But the other thing that I've learned from Win Without Pitching and Blair Enns and his team, is that they, without breaking the law or doing anything, unsavory advocate for trying to circumvent the inability to talk to the decision makers when you're in an RFP situation and try to, they call it derailing the process. And that's a fine line to walk, because you can very easily go from doing something that gives you slight competitive edge to breaking the law. So I would caution people to do their own due diligence and make sure they're not breaking the law before they engage in such behavior. But there's value in trying to circumvent the process and get the information you need by talking to the right people.
Mark Wainwright: I totally agree. I have a current client that I work with that received an email communication from a municipal agency, transportation department, or something like that that said, "Hey. We had a recent public RFP out there, and nobody responded, or not enough firms responded in order to meet our requirements." So they sent back a note and they said, "What did we do wrong? What should we have done instead? Why didn't you submit?" And I had to hold myself back and say, "Well, you did everything wrong." But yeah, I think there's a little bit of a movement out there for professional services firms to start pushing back a little bit, and not submitting and not playing the game and say, "Look, you can't purchase a really complex thing with a piece of paper. You just can't."
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: No. It's not possible. And oftentimes the RFP themselves are so taxing in terms of the information they require. I did respond to an RFP from the Ontario equivalent of the Ontario Association of Architects to produce a podcast. And those guys did it right because it was what's called QBSA qualification based selection, where you basically put a short document that it's a glorified CV with some information, some references, it's actually not very time-consuming. And then if you're shortlisted, they have a conversation with you. And I didn't get the job unfortunately. But I thought that was a very good approach, because I thought their idea of what they should be doing to produce a podcast was missing a few ideas. So in the conversations, I was able to say, "Look, I understand what you're trying to do, but it's a better approach and here's how we would go about it."
Mark Wainwright: Agreed.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: And you can't do that if you're just sending a 50-page document that you spent a month putting together and it costs you $100,000, that's just not going to work. And it seems like there's enough work out there for people to not bother with RFPs unless they're really big firms who can just afford to sink in the resources. But there are ways. I know clients who've gone public work without going through the RFP process because they were involved beforehand, in either finding the land, or securing the lease, or whatever, and then they ended up getting the job as a result of that. So there's those other ways to circumvent that. So that was great. I think that's enough for today. It was pretty heavy in content information, which is great. I really enjoyed talking to you, but before we part ways, any last words of wisdom that you'd like to share with the audience?
Mark Wainwright: You know, there's just so much great information out there that may not be connected to the architecture professional services world about sales. About how to price, about what a really good buying and selling process really looks like, about what those conversations need to contain, that I think a lot of architect and other experts just need to take their blinders off a little bit and explore the world, the universe of great information out there. Modern sales has nothing to do with that sleazy, pushy car salesman, and really it has everything to do with just being a really good human being.
Arnaud Marthouret - RVLTR: Yeah. Those are great words to end on. So thank you very much, Mark. It was a real pleasure to talk to you. And I think we'll have to be a few more of those, because there's too much to talk about.
Mark Wainwright: It's a deal. Thanks, Arnaud.